Westside Gunn once considered slowing down.
In recent years, the Buffalo-native has suffered the loss of family and friends, many of whom were his biggest supporters over the course of his life and career. Last October, he told Rolling Stone that he was considering stepping away from music and no longer making traditional albums. He said that he wanted to get back to “dumping.”
In the underground rap scene, “dumping” is the act of continuously releasing projects. It allows artists to get creative with the pricing of their projects or feature exclusive merch and perks. Dumping also allows independent acts to make a living by releasing a torrent of material that they could then perform on tour.
Gunn doesn’t have to release music to make a living anymore, but the act of dumping helped him be more creative at a time when he was feeling down. Then there were rumors and narratives surrounding his Griselda collective as he, Conway the Machine and Benny the Butcher were seemingly going their separate ways professionally and creatively. Lately, Gunn has been focusing on his pro wrestling company, Fourth Rope, but still believes his brother (Conway) and his cousin (Benny) have to come back together to remind people what Griselda is really about.
To begin jogging the rap world’s memory, Gunn decided to drop two projects this week. First, he released the five-song EP entitled 11. Narrated by Buffalo street legend Sly Green, the EP is dedicated to his brother Big Dump, who was killed in April of this year. Then, he dropped Still Praying, a mixtape that he’s been teasing for some months that’s hosted by DJ Drama.
Gunn stopped by the Billboard offices in NYC for a long conversation about legacy, family, wrestling, and much more.
This interview has been edited for length and clarity.
You said in an interview that you were going to stop making studio albums. You linked with DJ Drama to make this feel like more of a mixtape. What’s the difference between a mixtape and an album these days?
I feel like it’s different energies. Like, say for instance, people take a year to make an album because they’re developing the sound and getting shit together, and they might be going through 500 songs to pick the best 20 and all of that shit. I feel like the mixtape energy is one or two days just bang them shits out. Whatever you spit is just, that’s what it is. All my shit like that, though, because I don’t take no time to make none of my albums. So it’s kind of different for me. It’s all the same.
Yeah, that’s why I was curious because you already spoke on that and have that reputation.
I did 11 in one day. I did Still Praying in one day.
On And Then You Pray for Me, you had a mix of some trap beats and were trying to go in a different direction, to show some versatility. Still Praying, though, sounds more like traditional Griselda that people are used to.
That’s the thing. It’s not even like I do s–t purposely. It’s just the energy of that moment. When I made And Then You Pray for Me, I was at Paris Fashion Week, having fun every night, not coming in until its broad daylight. We had party after party after party. It was a vibe. That’s just where I was at in life at that moment, so you got that energy. But where I’m at right now artistically, and where I’m at in life, and just how I feel — it’s me, but it’s new energy. I don’t want to kind of sound corny on some reborn s–t, but it’s like Fly God and now it’s Super Fly God, for real [Laughs].
I told motherf–kers, can’t nobody f–k with me on almost every album since day one. But now it’s like, I know it. I went from telling y’all that shit, to now when you fast-forward and I’m more mature and been in the game and know who’s who and know who did what. It’s confirmed. I know it. I’ve been doing fashion, I’ve been doing wrestling, I’ve been doing art, I’ve been doing a lot of other things, but I was like, “Yo, let me just step back and let n—as know what time it is,” and I cooked back-to-back projects. So, that’s just where I’m at right now, like, “Man, put a beat on, and another one, and another one.” Now we’re five songs in type s–t. I can make an album every day right now.
You said that you wanted to get back to dumping. That’s what you guys were doing when you first came out, dropping a mixtape every other month.
Yeah, because people trying to rewrite history and forget who Griselda is. Griselda n—as fathers in the first place. I think with Conway doing what he doing by himself, and Benny doing what he’s doing by himself, and when they look at me — I’m at Fashion Week and I’m front row at wrestling events — n—as forget who Griselda is in the first place. I never said we were the first people to do it, but nobody took the s–t to this level like Westside Gunn and Griselda.
Nobody was on they fly s–t, nobody had big jewelry, nobody was able to f–king take care of their family. We showed you the blueprint of how to take this underground s–t to making money. Because before that n—as were still sleeping at their aunt’s house, and living tape to tape. I’m telling you, I know what time it is. All this vinyl s–t, all this s–t everybody doing, their whole blueprint came from Westside Gunn and Griselda. We showed y’all the way. It ain’t no other underground MC you could think of that paid two million cash for a house and I did that four years ago. I showed n—as the way.
But again, everybody started doing their own separate thing and living their lives that it went away from the music. When you go away from the music, now you got this man coming in and this man coming in, but they taking the formula. It ain’t even they formula, they just taking it, so in they mind now, they thinking they iller than us. I’m telling you, it’s crazy. I see a lot of these dudes, they got the arrogance like they them boys, I literally look at them like they my sons. The album is dope, but you my son.
Right now it’s back to the music. I’m talking to Benny, I’m talking to Conway, we all family. When you with somebody for 30 plus years of your life, sometimes you take a year or two away, but it’s okay because we’re real family. If anything happened to any one of us, I bet you we’re gonna be the first people there, or if anything happened in the family, we all gonna be there. It’s just everybody grown men, and we just had our little time where everybody was doing their own thing. But now it’s back to Griselda time starting now.
So, it was important for you to have them on this tape.
Yeah, because I gotta let people know this sh—t is forever. People always thought we was gonna break up. They always wanted that. People love the division because we really strong as f–k. Who knows what it would’ve been right now? I don’t regret nothing because everybody learned to be better men, too. You gotta learn from your mistakes. We from Buffalo, we never had anything, nobody taught us s–t. When you got dudes coming in the game now and getting the money, the fame, you from a city nobody never came from. Now your friends might be in your ear. We done went through it all, but now we realized, like, “Yo, we family and can’t nobody f–k with us.” We about to start working on What Would Chine Gun Do 2. We back on it. It’s Griselda Time.
Technically, Conway isn’t signed to Griselda anymore, right? But that doesn’t mean that you’re not going to be making music together.
I’ma tell you like this. When we did the whole situation, it was never about money. Of course, I had Griselda Records the company, but I never looked at it as I’m the big dog when they signed to me. I promise you, man, as much money as I made off Conway in my entire life, I probably couldn’t buy my left or right wrist. I’ve never made no money off Conway. I got a couple dollars off that Shady deal, but I got a leather coat that cost more money than I made off Conway’s Shady deal. I’ve never made no money off Conway. He got 100 percent of his merch, 100 percent of his music, 100 percent of his shows — I’ve never taken a dollar from Conway, except for 20 percent of the Shady deal. There was a narrative out there that looked crazy for a minute, but I’m never gonna speak on nothing because I know it ain’t true, there’s nothing to speak on, and this is my brother, and we really know what’s going on.
If there was tension, he wouldn’t be on this project.
There was never no tension, that’s what I’m trying to tell you. People think that s–t. We can’t have people thinking that we ain’t making music together no more.
Does the creative in you wish they would let you executive produce some of the projects they did elsewhere?
No, they’re men. Where they at and where they energy at might not require Westside Gunn and that’s okay. But guess what? I didn’t look at that as like, “Oh, they saying, ‘F–k me, I’ll never work with them again.’” I’m looking at it as, they’re learning, they’re building and growing. How they going to be the best them trying to just be under me? They not going to know until they be like, “Okay, well, you know what? Damn, maybe it is better that we come back together,” whatever the case may be. We’re always learning and we never had nobody to teach us this s–t. We’re family.
It was never about money. I never said nothing about them. It wasn’t no pillow talk. It was never nothing. Sometimes we gotta go our separate ways and take time off.
It felt like you were focused more on yourself on Still Praying. Usually you’ll have a bunch of features scattered throughout, where as this time around the features started at the end.
Mind you, I made it all in that day, so I was just dumping — it’s not like they in the room with me. So that’s why Drama says, “Can’t forget the family.” The album was done, but I had to call them so I can get a verse real quick, because I’m not about to drop it without them. I sent it to Conway, Benny, and Stove. Then the joint I did with Rome, we did at Statik’s studio.
Would you rather be together in the studio? Does it really matter?
Nah, don’t matter, as long as we paint the picture — but I do prefer us cooking together in person, that’s my favorite thing to do, because that’s a part of my curation. When we did WWCD, we did it together. When we did that album with Shady, we did that in a day and a half. Both my Shady albums combined — Who Made the Sunshine and WWCD — I made both those studio albums, quote, unquote, in four days. I literally rap maybe six, seven days out of the year.
So the beats that you pick are what? Are they being made there, or sitting in a pack?
I got ’em. I got enough beats to last the rest of my career.
This is like Daringer, The Alchemist, Conductor? They send you beats all the time?
Yeah, everybody. Pete Rock, Preemo, Swizz, all the big boys and the illest underground ones too right now, tucked because I’m a curator. I got hundreds of Conductor beats.
So, when you’re ready to work you open up a folder and start going in?
As soon as I get a pack, I narrow them down. I listen to all the packs, but then I sing to a certain folder, so then I’ll go back to that folder. There’s a science with my s–t. So, then I go to the sound. Like, “Okay, who got this sound? Matter of fact, yeah, this s–t would be crazy if I get a Swizz beat. Let me see what’s the hardest Swizz I got. Aight, boom. Well, you know what I don’t got? Uncle Al, let me check on my Uncle Al batch. This project needs Al.” I just bounce around like that as part of the curation process. When I did Nacksaw with Estee Nack, we did it in person. Pray for Haiti with Mach, we did it in person. Armani Caesar Liz 1 & 2, we did it in person. I work quick, so if you’re ready to work, we going to work. When you cooking with Westside Gunn, be ready, because we’re making your album in two days.
Do you have a pack of RZA beats? I was telling my boss that I was interviewing you and he wanted me to ask if you were planning on working with the RZA more. He listens to “House of Glory” from the last tape all the time.
Yeah, that’s my s–t. I would love to. I wanna put RZA on WWCD2 because Griselda on a RZA beat is history, and that’s what I’m saying. Me, personally, I don’t know how long I’m gonna do this for. I went from saying, “F–k this sh—t” to “I got another three in me.” But I also got kids, and I also want to raise my babies. I also do my wrestling s—t, my fashion s—t, so I got other things to keep me occupied.
Yeah, but you’re an artist, too — so sometimes you gotta make some music.
Yeah that’s why it’s never planned with me. Once I get the urge, I make the project right on the spot.
That’s why with the album thing, you don’t want to be beholden to a release schedule.
I might be saying something that just literally happened right now, where it’s like, if it dropped three months from now, it doesn’t even make sense. When I’m ready to drop everybody scrambles for a week or two. Even with this project, there’s only been social media posts as of right now. Hasn’t been no street presence, no Internet presence, no singles, no videos, no nothing.
I don’t think it’s on here, but you did a theme song for TNA? “Chocolate Face” with DJ Khaled.
That’s gonna be on Flygod Is an Awesome God 3. That album is a whole ‘nother juggernaut. This how everything came together: Awesome God 3 was done and I thought it was a masterpiece. And this was the best way for Westside Gunn to come back on the scene and basically have the Album of the Year. When I was finishing Awesome God 3, I went to Paris to go mix and master it, but I couldn’t get my sessions because my engineer was in Africa, and our communication was off, so now I got studio time. I left my family, flew out to Paris to do this work, what I’m gonna do? So, I made Still Praying while I was out there. Now I went from about to mix and master one album to making a new one.
So I was like, let me have Drama hop on this to give it that mixtape feel; just me dumpin’. You could hear the hunger, and it just reminded me of Ski Mask Westside Gunn. My whole career, I drop something around Halloween. I wanted to keep the tradition, but I wanted to cook something totally different. I wanted 11 to be totally different from Still Praying. I wanted the EP to be more slow and soulful, more personal. And not to get too deep, because I really don’t even want to talk about 11 because 11 is very personal to me; people might listen to it like it’s just music, but it’s not just music to me.
My brother got killed in April, and you got him on the cover, and it says “Free Sly… for Big Dump.” When you dig deeper into that project, Sly got life, and my brother got killed, and these are two people that’s key in my life that I probably will never get to see again. Sly is optimistic, but he may never come home. I had Sly narrate 11, so people actually get to hear a different side to him. In Buffalo, Sly Green is like John Gotti to us.
Sly is the OG in Buffalo like a Bumpy Johnson?
The biggest of the biggest. American Gangster, A&E, History Channel documentary, Don Diva covers, like the real deal. It don’t get no more gangster than Sly Green. Everyday you see him, he’s in a suit and tie. If his movie came out, it’d be one of the illest of all time. He got his law degree and has been spending his whole time in prison trying to get other kingpins home. He’s was able to get the four life sentences off him, so now he has the 110 years, and he already served 33. You can hear the optimism in his voice on the project. I hope he do come home. You hear him on there talking for the first time, for real, for real, saying what he’s saying. You hear my brother, I got a voicemail with him. Keisha Plum couldn’t even finish her poem. She cried the whole time writing it. It took her forever to lay the poem down.
It’s a project I never did before. It’s a quick five-piece, but the five pieces are very special. This is so over heads that they don’t even understand what they even listening to. Not knowing my brother just got killed in April, not knowing Sly is one of the biggest gangsters of all time. I used that picture of my brother showing me something. We were always ahead of the game, that’s all we did was study, just wanting to be one up on everybody. I made it for everybody to enjoy, but it’s something that’s harder for me to listen to.
Recording that was like a cathartic thing. You had to get your emotions out.
It’s hard for me to even post the cover. This is something I still deal with every day. I done lost our DJ, Shay. I lost my aunt Michelle who raised me my whole life. I lost my granddad six months before her in the same year. I bought ‘Chelle a house and gave her the money for the furniture, and she never even got a chance to get the furniture. People don’t understand the pain I’ve been going through the last three, four years.
With all the stuff that you’ve been through with your family and even with Virgil passing, did you have to find a new energy to help get you out of depression.
That’s why music really wasn’t a big factor. I focused so much on wrestling because wrestling is my safe zone. Me sitting front row is my therapy. If it wasn’t for wrestling, I’d probably be dead or in jail. I’d be losing my mind feeling lost. My influences and all the people that’s key and instrumental in my life and who I feel were my biggest fans and my biggest supporters, I’ve lost. It’s f–ked up, because when you lose so many people, you start getting a paranoia.
That sh—t is scary, bro. You start to think about your mortality.
That’s where I’ve been at, you know? That’s why I say, before it’s all said and done, we can’t let motherf–kers rewrite our history. We can’t let Griselda go out shaky. We gotta let n—as know, this s–t was the illest.
You plan on putting out a tape called Michelle? You’ve shouted that name out and refer to Michelle Records a lot.
Michelle Records is me and Stove together.
So is it a group or a tape? Stove God is affiliated with Griselda, but he’s not signed officially, right?
He don’t gotta be [signed], he is Griselda. I’m actually going to executive produce his Babygrande album.
Another name I wanted to bring up is Mach-Hommy. You brought up Pray for Haiti earlier. Can you speak on why you guys haven’t worked together again?
It ain’t no issue. We literally just hugged each other four days ago. We’re going to make another one. It’s about timing. Even with WWCD2, they’ve been wanting to do it, but they also had their time to shine all year, too, and I didn’t. Can I get mine? [Laughs.] Benny hit me like, “Buz, when we starting? Conway hit me, “Bro, when we starting?” But it’s like, “Yo, like, can I get my rocks off, man? Y’all had yours, let me get mine off and then we going to do that.”
And then I also want to get that out the way, respectfully, because then I want to focus on what me and Stove got going on. But then guess what? I can come back and cook with Mach, I can come back and cook with Estee Nack, the people that I love cooking with.
On Saturday, Nov. 2, you’re doing something in Chicago with your wrestling company Fourth Rope. Can you talk about that a bit?
Fourth Rope comes from me being front row at every WrestleMania, every Royal Rumble, every Survivor Series, every Summer Slam, every Double or Nothing, every Full Gear. I’m at three wrestling events this week. I just left Detroit for TNA’s pay-per-view, and I leave here tomorrow to go to AEW Dynamite in Cleveland. So, me being front row, I say I am the fourth rope because there’s three ropes on the ring and I’m front row.
The first party we had was during WrestleMania, we sold out TLA in Philly. The second one we did the same thing, House of Blues in Cleveland during Summer Slam. This weekend we had the opportunity to throw our matches and make it about us and not piggybacking off Summer Slam or WrestleMania. And I picked Chicago because I go there to see more pay-per-views than anywhere else and every rap show I’ve ever had in Chicago sold out, too. I figure I mix both worlds, I already know what it’s gonna do. Illinois period is a big wrestling state and Chicago is a wrestling city.
You have your own wrestlers and everything?
Not only do I have my own wrestlers, but I have the best wrestlers in the world. I have the wrestlers from TNA. I have the TNA champ. I have Moose, Jordan Grace, Mike Santana from TNA. We also have a no-holds-barred steel cage match with the Death Match legend Nick Gage. We got the legend MVP that was with WWE, he’s our commissioner. They got the whole Usos thing going on right now with The Bloodline. So for the championship, we got Moose versus Zilla Fatu. We got a piece of The Bloodline too. We also got DJ Premier and Pete Rock. All of this sh—t is for $60, bro.
How did you meet AA Rashid? The first time I heard of him was on your albums. Sometimes, I’ll listen to a track of him talking like its a song. It reminds me of Popa Wu.
It’s crazy how I met him, because I was hustling. I had some work on a Mega Bus, taking my trips, doing what I’m doing. I was hustling still when I did HWH 1 & 2, and all of that, nobody really knew who I was yet. I was only out of the Feds for two years, I was just on my chill sh—t. I was still on my papers hustling, you know? Grinding. I was getting off in Atlanta and AA was on the bus, and I had just did HWH 2 with the Chanel ski mask on the cover. Griselda Records comes from Griselda by Fashion Rebels, so I was already designing. The jacket I had was a Griselda bomber and he was looking at it like, “That sh—t crazy.”
He was going to see his daughter or something and we started kicking it during the stop before Atlanta. He said he was into fashion too and designed and that he had some friends in the music industry. So, once we got off I handed him a copy of HWH 2 with the Chanel ski mask. If you see that Chanel ski mask cover for the first time, especially back then, it was like, “Yo, what the f—k is this?” He said, “Yo, this you? I’ma play this for some friends,” and come to find out his friend was Planet Asia. This started with me meeting AA on that Mega Bus on the way to Atlanta. Planet Asia then played the CD for The Alchemist.
That’s how you got on the radar.
Exactly, and Planet Asia is cool with Hus Kingpin, so Hus was out there and I had never been to L.A. in my life. I’m an Eastside Buffalo n—a, we never had no opportunities. Buffalo n—as never really leave Buffalo. I took the opportunity to go out there and link with these n—as.
Has it been hard to go to Toronto because of your past?
Sometimes they do, sometimes they don’t. I’m going to try again soon. I was recently in Toronto to check out Raekwon’s Purple Factory.
Speaking of Raekwon, I was gonna bring up if you would ever consider executive producing an album with him and Ghostface?
Of course, just last month it was brought up. I’ve talked to Rae and Ghost about it, and I talked to Jada about it. Them the only people I’ve ever came to and was like, “Yo, I want to do this for y’all.” A Rae and Ghost by me and a Jadakiss by me would be legendary. I wanna do something with Nas too. There’s a mutual respect with them.
I’m sure you guys remind them of themselves.
Rae has been in Buffalo with us. He’s shown us love since day one. Prodigy was a big supporter early, too. Prodigy used to come to Buffalo and f—k with us on his own since day one. I done visited Prodigy in this hospital bed. Sean Price, rest in peace, was a supporter, as well. You know, I have songs with Sean Price, Prodigy, MF DOOM, and DMX. A lot of people can’t say that. Dolph was my favorite rapper, that was my dream collab.
